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Author Topic: Benefits  (Read 33169 times)

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omega3000

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Re: Benefits
« Reply #60 on: 03 April 2013, 14:38:33 »

Yes agreed its got to change but they are tarring all with the same brush and thats where its wrong ... labeling genuine people in need with people like this 
Quote
The latest figures from the Department for Work and Pensions show that 1,830 incapacity benefit claimants are obese, 42,360 suffer from alcoholism and 37,480 are listed under ‘drug abuse’.

Plus all the ones that have just given up the benefits as they know they wont pass the new medical  >:(
Its a disgrace , i see it every day people on DLA that walk around with a walking stick on their arm not needing the use of it but getting all the benefits , new cars and holidays 3 times a year  >:( these are the ones that have lined their pockets for years that have now just handed in their entitlement  >:(

Where on earth do you get that from?  Comments like that do not help at all.... >:(  I am amazed that in this day and age people still assume that a disabled person with mobility difficulties should be in a wheel chair or even use a walking stick, if you do not understand why people get 'Mobility' then imho you should not Judge.................. :)

People screwing the system and claiming benefits they never should be like its just been justified by all of those claiming have given it up as they know they wont pass the new medical , i wasnt on about the genuine people that really need the help . And i fully understand why genuine claimants get mobility and not just the ones in wheel chairs  :)
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Field Marshal Dr. Opti

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Re: Benefits
« Reply #61 on: 03 April 2013, 15:04:15 »

Slightly off-thread, but does anyone recall a nice little perk that went by the name of MIRAS?

Long gone now but most helpful at the time.
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dbdb

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Re: Benefits
« Reply #62 on: 03 April 2013, 15:27:53 »

That's been tried Labour put the top rate of income tax up to 50%, the number paying the top rate has gone down from 16,000 to 6,000 with a massive drop on that collected, so you can't you will just collect less, it is the same with fuel, booze, fags, stamp duty, flights etc they are all the wrong side of the Laffer curve, so Government tax targets have been missed. Once taxes are too high people, many through necessity, will change their lives and lifestyles to pay less.

As I recall the government never released the figures for the 50% tax but even Obsourne did admit it raised something, the effect was not negative: "It raises at most a fraction of what we were told, and it may raise nothing at all." (Budget speech 21 March 2012)   The rich will always avoid tax (they currently pay less than us, see Sunday Times article below)  but that's not a reason to stop trying to make them pay it.  Just one example the mansion tax would be pretty unavoidable; they can't move their mansions abroad.   

Here are some respected economists views on 'austerity' as a cure: http://falseeconomy.org.uk/cure/what-do-the-experts-say

'Tax is for the little people'
From The Sunday Times
September 16, 2007
Treasury reveals tax burden is heaviest on poor
Holly Watt

BRITAIN’S richest people are paying 4p in the pound less in tax than any other section of the population, according to new figures released by the Treasury.

The data show the top 1% of households hand over 31% of their income when all direct and indirect taxes are accounted for, compared with an average of 35% for everyone else.

Much of the gap has opened up because, while the rich pay a higher rate of income tax, they pay a smaller proportion of their income in indirect levies such as television licences and Vat on goods and services.

The Treasury analysis, which covers figures for 2005-6, the latest available, has been seized on by critics who believe the figures show Labour’s tax regime has excessively favoured the rich.

Vince Cable, the Liberal Democrat shadow chancellor, to whom the figures were released, said: “People at the very top pay a smaller percentage than people at the bottom. Despite the claims that the tax system is progressive, it seems that people right at the top are paying less.”

Cable is concerned that the tax burden has increased most on the lowest earners.

It is unclear whether the figures include the tax paid by people with nondomiciled status. If it does not, it may understate the disparity between the rich and the rest.

Gordon Brown has shied away from new taxes on the rich to avoid undermining the City and scaring off investors.

During the summer there was public controversy about the low rates of tax enjoyed by private equity tycoons, some of whom can pay as little as 10% on their earnings.

The controversy was stoked in June when Nicholas Ferguson, chairman of SVG Capital, admitted in an interview that he felt uncomfortable paying lower taxes than his cleaner.

“Any commonsense person would say that a highly paid private equity executive paying less tax than a cleaning lady or other low-paid workers . . . can’t be right,” he said.

Although the Labour government initially claimed it would promote a progressive tax system, whereby the highest paid contribute more in taxes, the figures undermine the claim.

For the lowest 10% of earners, the average annual income per household is £8,366, of which 44.2% is paid as tax.

At the other end of the spectrum, the top 10% of households receive an average £88,334 and pay 35% in tax. The highest-earning 1% have an income of more than £92,300. Households on the median income of £24,700 pay 35.3% in tax.

Mike Warburton, senior tax partner at Grant Thornton, the accountancy firm, said: “Up to certain income levels, whatever income people get they spend and get hit with taxes. But at the top end people start putting money into their savings and some of the big items of expenditure for these people - notably private school fees - do not attract Vat.”

The tax status of nondomiciled residents, who are taxed only on the investment income they remit to the UK, has also been questioned.

A number of donors and lenders to the Labour party have benefited from this status. They include Lakshmi Mittal, Britain’s richest man, Lord Paul, the industrialist, Sir Gulam Noon, the curry tycoon, and Sir Christopher Ondaatje, the publisher.

The provisions have been officially “under review” by the Treasury since 2002, but no conclusions have been published. Treasury documents published under the Freedom of Information Act showed that there were 77,000 people in Britain benefiting from nondomiciled status in 2002. The number is now put at nearly 200,000.

« Last Edit: 03 April 2013, 15:29:29 by dbdb »
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ted_one

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Re: Benefits
« Reply #63 on: 03 April 2013, 15:40:54 »

Gentlemen..please form an orderly queue, drop your shorts, bend over and remember we're all in this together :o
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TheBoy

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Re: Benefits
« Reply #64 on: 03 April 2013, 19:28:02 »

TINA was crap when it was first said and it's crap now. Don't believe that austerity for the poor is the answer.  The answer is a modest redistribution of wealth.
We've run out of rich people, as we've been doing that for too long.

So the next step is to "encourage" those who can work to do so, and the way to do that is to cut the benefits of those who refuse for reasons that aren't really valid. And put a cap on the maximum amount of benefits a household had claim.
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Re: Benefits
« Reply #65 on: 03 April 2013, 19:36:33 »

And, even if all the rich were on massive income tax amounts, and for some bizarre reason decided not to frak orf elsewhere, it still wouldn't come close to paying for all those that claimed they needed the extra money that the benefits system gives.


Please, do the maths.

Benefits system is £220bn (US billions)
Number in employment in UK is £19m

That works out, just to pay for the benefits system, everyone who works has to pay £11k per year. It doesn't matter how many rich people you drive out of the country so we don't get their taxes screw, its not going to impact that figure much.

The other big money waster, NHS, is about half the budget of welfare, so thats about another £5-6k for every working person.

Its not sustainable. Thus UK plc is in the shit. Costs must be absolutely slaughtered.
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Re: Benefits
« Reply #66 on: 03 April 2013, 19:38:00 »

TINA was crap when it was first said and it's crap now. Don't believe that austerity for the poor is the answer.  The answer is a modest redistribution of wealth.
We've run out of rich people, as we've been doing that for too long.

So the next step is to "encourage" those who can work to do so, and the way to do that is to cut the benefits of those who refuse for reasons that aren't really valid. And put a cap on the maximum amount of benefits a household had claim.

Totally agree... I think some folks don't actually know or understand the actual meaning of the words "benefit", "support", "allowance" etc .. and confuse them with the term "right"
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Lizzie_Zoom

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Re: Benefits
« Reply #67 on: 03 April 2013, 19:51:19 »

TINA was crap when it was first said and it's crap now. Don't believe that austerity for the poor is the answer.  The answer is a modest redistribution of wealth.
We've run out of rich people, as we've been doing that for too long.

So the next step is to "encourage" those who can work to do so, and the way to do that is to cut the benefits of those who refuse for reasons that aren't really valid. And put a cap on the maximum amount of benefits a household had claim.

Totally agree... I think some folks don't actually know or understand the actual meaning of the words "benefit", "support", "allowance" etc .. and confuse them with the term "right"


But that is down to political history I'm afraid.  When the mass employment industries were "reduced" and the government was perceived to have taken jobs away from the populous, the natural reaction of those ex-workers in the industrial areas of Britain left in the lurch was, "I'll now just take what I can in benefits and live on that if no one is prepared to give us jobs anymore". That culture still persists to this day as successive governments have failed to help the young and not so young to gain worthwhile, full time, employment. The feeling I'm sure is "They (the politicians) are only in it for themselves and what they can make, so we will take what we can as the poor of society!"

Until there is a fundamental shift in UK politics and the politicians that "represent" us there will be conflict between those that have and those that don't! 

........and whilst we are on the subject of benefits..............where is Farage and UKIP on this? There has been silence from what I suspect is nothing but a one trick party who cannot apply themselves to actual policies and comment on situations that are close to home, and have not entered the fray on what is a crucial subject for hundreds of thousands.  All they can comment about is the EU, and that is not what we need.  I find that very disappointing.
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TheBoy

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Re: Benefits
« Reply #68 on: 03 April 2013, 20:04:02 »

LZ has a point, although I don't fully agree myself...

...we have generations of people who's parents never worked, living purely off the benefits system, so its all they know.
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Re: Benefits
« Reply #69 on: 03 April 2013, 20:21:51 »

LZ has a point, although I don't fully agree myself...

...we have generations of people who's parents never worked, living purely off the benefits system, so its all they know.

3rd Generation in many cases now......... :-X
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TheBoy

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Re: Benefits
« Reply #70 on: 03 April 2013, 20:36:00 »

LZ has a point, although I don't fully agree myself...

...we have generations of people who's parents never worked, living purely off the benefits system, so its all they know.

3rd Generation in many cases now......... :-X
Indeed. "Normality".
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ozzycat

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Re: Benefits
« Reply #71 on: 03 April 2013, 21:34:50 »

i worked 6=7 days a week exept holidays  i never claimed anything exept child benefit which was put in a bank acc for the kids when they grew up  in 20008 xmas i came home from work had my tea the next thing i know was 3 days later waking up in hospital i havent been able to work scince i dont like claiming benefits but i have no choice we usded all our savings up in the 1st 6 months paying tne mortgage ect we then were able to claim benefits we lost our house to the mortguage rescue sceme they paid the mortguage off and claimed tha house the one we still live in they paid 1/2 what the house was worth that was what the mortguage was we lost everthing we had worked for in 25 yrs of marrige but it kept a roof over our heads  i am not a scrounger i have no coice  i wish i could go back to work again  then i woulnt be a scrounger anymore you dont know how depresing this is when youve allways provided for your family then you cant i dont like been labled a bone idol git as one of the local councilars likes to call me but hes a dickhead anyway i spend 3 days aweek on dyalisis i cant walk no faether than the lenth of my front roon i cant evan dress my self evan whan ive been to the loo ive no nerves from my neck down but im in herendous pain from the nerves dying off mind you been numb dose have its advantages if you get my drift  they gave me 6 months to live in 2009 so in hanging inthere and there maybe a chance of a transplant if i make Christmas so i now have somthing to aim for  aswell as my grandaughter poppy and that bloody fox if it comes back
 sorry for moaning
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Re: Benefits
« Reply #72 on: 03 April 2013, 21:53:47 »

The figures from the drop in 50% tax payers from 16,0000 to 6,000 and the overall revenue collected comes from HMRC.

The benefits system was originally setup to give people a hand when they had hit rock bottom from unemployment or illness until they were able to get on their feet and work again in most cases. There will always be the long term ill and disabled that will need help for the rest of their lives. Any decent humane society will do its best to support such unfortunate people. I feel that our universal benefits system, lets these people down where they are just a small part of a vast system, so they don't get the support they need and are unfortunately tarred with the same brush as the f'eckless and idle. In the early 1970's welfare was about £20bn, which was the size of our defense budget. Our defense budget in now around £30bn, while welfare has exploded to over ten times the size to almost £220bn, which along with our bloated NHS and education budgets are unsustainable.

Welfare was then hijacked by do-gooder politicians and organizations to create a dependency class / industry as their clients / voters, so the original intention has been lost along with any reasonable costs. As usual most of the problems have been caused by Labour Governments especially the last one with the three thick monkeys McRuin, Balls-up and Millipede at the centre of most of our current problems. McRuin's working tax-credits up to an income of £60,000, so you have a family, pay tax and then as a state client you get some back from the masses of civil servants taken on to administer it, that an efficient way to do things isn't it? Another McRuin plan, France spends about 7% of GDP on their health service, so McRuin decided we should spend the same, whether we could afford it or not, or whether it would improve the NHS or not was irrelevant. Most of the masses of money shoveled in was wasted on PFI repayments, the doubling of GP's wages and other wages for less work and administrators, so productivity dropped. We now get much less health benefit for each £ than we used to. Th third area was education for teaching assistants, PFI projects, grade inflation and the biggest drop in educational standards in a generation, with up to 30% of pupils being dysfunctional where they have not been taught basic English and Maths skills. Pretty much useless for employers in a skilled based society, so it is much better to employ immigrants. During BLiar's and McRuin's reign they rewarded their union paymasters well, so Civil Servants are now paid about 20% more than the equivalent private sector job.

Add into this situation the 'uman rights act and we have what was intended as a last ditch prop in time of need into absolute rights and benefits for all, which is where we now are.

Society good words are currently: 'uman rights, equality, fairness, benefits and welfare.

Society bad words: stand on your own feet, hard work, wealth creation, enterprise, entrepreneurial, making money, self-made riches and profit.

So while entrepreneurs like myself, view the country as a no growth, unacceptable high tax, basket case and move on to better places to do business, so the UK will have no growth and an ever widening balance of payments problem. So all those that want redistribution of wealth, so their is an equality of misery, I'm quite happy to let you get on with it. I have seen the results from this first hand in the ex-Soviet states and wish you the best of luck in creating your "heaven on earth" Cuba or North Korea. The 21st century important parts of the globe have or are moving on from failed socialism and getting their 6-15% growth a year. China creates a new economy the size of Greece every 3 months and the size of Italy every year and will overtake the US to be the world's largest economy in 2016. They went from a staving socialist failure to this by adopting capitalism about 30 years a go! Failing getting poorer by the second Europe is going in the opposite direction. While the BRICS create ever bigger cakes and mass wealth, which is raising living standards for all, the European politicians argue over the size of the crumbs each of us should get!
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dbdb

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Re: Benefits
« Reply #73 on: 04 April 2013, 00:38:08 »

The figures from the drop in 50% tax payers from 16,0000 to 6,000 and the overall revenue collected comes from HMRC.

There's a factcheck on that claim here http://fullfact.org/factchecks/labour_50p_tax_rate_millionaires_leave_country-28645 and here http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2012/11/28/the-telegraphs-claim-that-all-the-rich-have-run-away-because-of-50p-tax-is-completely-bogus/

It seems it is not all it seems, if not even "completely bogus".
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bored bigyin54

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Re: Benefits
« Reply #74 on: 04 April 2013, 09:47:54 »

i worked 6=7 days a week exept holidays  i never claimed anything exept child benefit which was put in a bank acc for the kids when they grew up  in 20008 xmas i came home from work had my tea the next thing i know was 3 days later waking up in hospital i havent been able to work scince i dont like claiming benefits but i have no choice we usded all our savings up in the 1st 6 months paying tne mortgage ect we then were able to claim benefits we lost our house to the mortguage rescue sceme they paid the mortguage off and claimed tha house the one we still live in they paid 1/2 what the house was worth that was what the mortguage was we lost everthing we had worked for in 25 yrs of marrige but it kept a roof over our heads  i am not a scrounger i have no coice  i wish i could go back to work again  then i woulnt be a scrounger anymore you dont know how depresing this is when youve allways provided for your family then you cant i dont like been labled a bone idol git as one of the local councilars likes to call me but hes a dickhead anyway i spend 3 days aweek on dyalisis i cant walk no faether than the lenth of my front roon i cant evan dress my self evan whan ive been to the loo ive no nerves from my neck down but im in herendous pain from the nerves dying off mind you been numb dose have its advantages if you get my drift  they gave me 6 months to live in 2009 so in hanging inthere and there maybe a chance of a transplant if i make Christmas so i now have somthing to aim for  aswell as my grandaughter poppy and that bloody fox if it comes back
 sorry for moaning
i know how you feel . i would rather be working but cant so we are stuck as scroungers .tarde with the same brush :y :y
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