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[razzo]

of manslaughter, surprising as the Coroner recorded a verdict of unlawful killing

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18900484

[waspy]

Well why does that not surprise me

[tigers_gonads]

The bloke is nothing more than a thug with a warrant card 

2001 ish, he jumps (retires) before he is pushed after act of road rage then is re employed as a civvy by the same force.

He leaves and joins the surrey force as a copper then he rejoins the met.

During those riots, he tried to arrest some bloke who managed to escape.
Next he is seen putting a camara man on his arse.

Ian Tomlinson was not acting in a agressive manor and he was walking away with his hands in his pocket when he was struck across the back of the legs with a batton then shoved to the floor 

That was manslaughter and the scumbag should be locked up tonight 

[Dishevelled Den]

Without knowing the precise wording of the charge put to Constable Harwood this is another instance where the law can be easily misunderstood, leaving the findings of a jury and the subsequent direction of a judge open to criticism.

I happen to think that the Constable acted excessively and inadvisably in the circumstances, however the subsequent prosecution of any defendant, the conduct of their trial and the findings (if any) of the jury should be based on the evidence tested on foot of the precise nature of the charge/s placed against the defendant.

In this case there are differing definitions of manslaughter - some requiring greater proof to convict (or affording greater leeway to acquit) than others.

[hotel21]

The bloke is nothing more than a thug with a warrant card 

2001 ish, he jumps (retires) before he is pushed after act of road rage then is re employed as a civvy by the same force.

He leaves and joins the surrey force as a copper then he rejoins the met.

During those riots, he tried to arrest some bloke who managed to escape.
Next he is seen putting a camara man on his arse.

Ian Tomlinson was not acting in a agressive manor and he was walking away with his hands in his pocket when he was struck across the back of the legs with a batton then shoved to the floor 

That was manslaughter and the scumbag should be locked up tonight 

Our own thoughts and opinions are by and large, immaterial without hearing the whole case and circumstance in court under legal guidance.

Those viewing the matter outwith a court case are, I suggest, biased by their thoughts, bolstered by news reportage and last but not least, their interpretation of the snapshot of the easily viewable (and edited) footage on youtube.

 

[Kendo1690]

The bloke is nothing more than a thug with a warrant card 

2001 ish, he jumps (retires) before he is pushed after act of road rage then is re employed as a civvy by the same force.

He leaves and joins the surrey force as a copper then he rejoins the met.

During those riots, he tried to arrest some bloke who managed to escape.
Next he is seen putting a camara man on his arse.

Ian Tomlinson was not acting in a agressive manor and he was walking away with his hands in his pocket when he was struck across the back of the legs with a batton then shoved to the floor 

That was manslaughter and the scumbag should be locked up tonight 

Our own thoughts and opinions are by and large, immaterial without hearing the whole case and circumstance in court under legal guidance.

Those viewing the matter outwith a court case are, I suggest, biased by their thoughts, bolstered by news reportage and last but not least, their interpretation of the snapshot of the easily viewable (and edited) footage on youtube.

If you look at the information made available too ourselves,then in my opinion the man was guilty,but like you say if you are a juror and hear all the information,then you are the only person who can make the correct decision,but then how can the coroner who also had all the information say "unlawful killing/murder".It's a bit strange..

[hotel21]

Was the jury descision unanimous or by a majority? How long did they take to decide?   

[omega3000]

Its not good news by any means  should have been locked up 

[Entwood]

The jury were required to be SURE ...beyond reasonable doubt ... that his actions were directly responsible for the death, and their reasoning had to be based solely on the evidence presented to them in court.

None of us know, as we were not in court, what evidence was presented, how that evidence was presented, and what the prosecution and defence arguments were.

ALL we do know, for certainty, is that sufficient numbers, maybe all, of the jury, were NOT SURE to a sufficient level to find him guilty.

That is the basis of UK law ... not OOF vigilante guesswork.

[albitz]

All very true,but on the face of it,its a bit difficult to marry up the coroners unlawful killing verdict,with the juries not guilty verdict.

[hercules]

The jury were required to be SURE ...beyond reasonable doubt ... that his actions were directly responsible for the death, and their reasoning had to be based solely on the evidence presented to them in court.

None of us know, as we were not in court, what evidence was presented, how that evidence was presented, and what the prosecution and defence arguments were.

ALL we do know, for certainty, is that sufficient numbers, maybe all, of the jury, were NOT SURE to a sufficient level to find him guilty.

That is the basis of UK law ... not OOF vigilante guesswork.

well said nige,ive always said that a policeman can have a good career and it takes one accident or occurance and the media strike and taint his existence.as h21 said people have only seen the hyped videos on youtube and the media edited footage and as you have said its down to the courts and jury 

[Entwood]

All very true,but on the face of it,its a bit difficult to marry up the coroners unlawful killing verdict,with the juries not guilty verdict.

Nope ..

The coroner said he was unlawfully killed ... one man's opinion although based on the law.

The jury decided they were not sure that the PC was directly responsible for the death .. 12 peoples opinion of the evidence placed before them.

Different courts, different evidence, and in the trial barristers arguing their points, cross examining witnesses etc etc ..

which I don't believe occurs in the Coroners Court ... as I've never been to one of them ..

[albitz]

Could be argued that they are both supposed to be arms of the British justice system and one is almost contradicting the other.
The coroners isnt just one man,he is the man charged with making a judgement (on behalf of the state presumably) on why someone died,after having studied the facts and evidence.
I dont claim to have any real knowledge of how these things work at all,just a layman who is left slightly confused by the different arms of the legal system. Still seems somewhat strange to me.

[Entwood]

Was the jury descision unanimous or by a majority? How long did they take to decide?   

From the information I have been able to glean .. a unanimous verdict after 4 days of deliberation ... although that is NOT confirmed, but is correct to the best of my knowledge.

HTH

[Entwood]

Could be argued that they are both supposed to be arms of the British justice system and one is almost contradicting the other.
The coroners isnt just one man,he is the man charged with making a judgement (on behalf of the state presumably) on why someone died,after having studied the facts and evidence.
I dont claim to have any real knowledge of how these things work at all,just a layman who is left slightly confused by the different arms of the legal system. Still seems somewhat strange to me.

Just to try and explain it better ... the verdict of "unlawful killing" by the coroner will generally ensure a police investigation with the aim of gathering sufficient evidence to identify, charge and prosecute those involved.

This was done, and the CPS prosecuted the PC (so he was identified and charged) but that prosecution failed, in other words .... the CPS failed to make the jury SURE that the charges were met ...

It is not different "arms" of the legal system, it is a step further along the path ... coroner, 1 person with perhaps a small amount of evidence.. then Jury, 12 people with the all the evidence AFTER the police investigation.